FANTASTIC FOUR: RISE OF THE SILVER SURFER -- SCREENWRITER DON PAYNE

VANCOUVER, British Columbia -- The Continuum today continues its series of stories from the set of Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer with an interview with screenwriter Don Payne.

Payne, a co-executive producer and writer on The Simpsons, had lunch with a group of Internet journalists prior to the tour of the sets.

Following is an edited transcription of the interview.

Question: So how long did it take you to write the screenplay?

Payne: I have been a Marvel Comics fan since I was very, very little, and so it's kind of been my career path, my career goal, to work on a Marvel Comics film. So, I told my agent -- as soon as I switched agencies -- that I really wanted to work with Marvel, can you get me in there, any way possible? So he kept putting me in front of Kevin Feige and Avi Arad, you know, kind of over and over again, and I think I just wore them down and they gave me an assignment, so...

Question: So going back to the original question, how long did it take you to write this screenplay?

Payne: It seemed to be an ongoing process. I met with them, I wrote it - maybe six weeks, eight weeks, something like that? But I'd been talking about it with them before for a while, shooting ideas back and forth.

Question: What was your assignment? Did they have specific comic arcs that they wanted you to incorporate into the film?

Payne: They knew they wanted to use the Silver Surfer. They knew that they wanted to use Doctor Doom. And they had some ideas about where they wanted the characters to be at this moment in their lives, and so I basically just took that and went with it.

Question: Where are the characters?

Payne: There are little surprises in there that I don't want to spoil that they had a couple of ideas for. Where are the characters now? Well, Reed and Sue are engaged, and trying to married. But Ben is at a pretty good place right now, because of his relationship with Alicia, he's more confident in his own skin. And Johnny is Johnny. He's got his own issues in this that I don't want to spoil or go into. He's pretty consistent.

Question: Did you go back to the comics, or is this completely unique?

Payne: You've always got to go back to the comics. That's the source material. I mean certainly because we're doing the Silver Surfer story we're pulling from Fantastic Four #48 through #50, right? And we're also doing #57 through #60, I believe it's the Dr. Doom/Silver Surfer story. And some moments from Ultimate Extinction as well, a couple of things borrowed from that, and then some new stuff, all kind of thrown in.

Question: What was the biggest challenge?

Payne: Well, it's always a challenge to come on board a franchise that's up and running, especially one that is so important to me, personally and so important to so many people out there. You want to get it right. You want to make it fun. You want to be true to the comics, but be able to please the general audience as well, and make it entertaining for them.

When you write a spec, before you sell it, it's this little universe you create, and you're playing God, and you can do whatever you want, and you can do it exactly like you want. At some point, eventually you have to turn it over and it becomes a collaborative process. But at some point you get to play God and make things exactly the way you want it.

With a franchise film like this, especially one based on pre-existing characters, you can never do that. It's got a history, and there are a lot of people involved. There's the studio, there's Marvel, there's the producers, there's Tim Story, the director, and you're trying to reconcile people's visions and your own and make it coherent, first of all, and entertaining and fun for everybody.

Question: Did you go back to the comics, or is this completely unique?

Question: How much of the film follows that same kind of dysfunctional family aspect? It sounds like this is a lot more action with the Silver Surfer.

Payne: There is a lot of action, but everything, the characters are always based on, have always been based on the dysfunctional family, from the first issue. I think that's how they were conceived. And so there is that, but there is a lot more action in this, absolutely. We're hitting the ground running. I mean it was a challenge for the first film to try to set up the origins and find the right tone, and I think we have that now.

Question: Talking about the first film, there were things that were, obviously, inconsistent. Did you shy away from certain things that didn't work? What did work for you that you built upon in this film?

Payne: It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and see what went right and what went wrong and what you would want to change. I thought the one thing I really wanted to do in this was to make Reed Richards more of a leader than before, so that's no big scoop. But I thought as a leader of the Fantastic Four that Ioan (Gruffudd) did a great job, but I thought the character could be a little tougher, and a little more assertive, especially when he's dealing with such strong personalities. He's got to rein them in and be an authority figure. So that's one of the things I wanted to approach certainly.

What else? I wanted to make Doctor Doom more evil and more like he is in the comics, push him away a little bit from the corrupt billionaire into somebody a little more threatening and intimidating. That's certainly something I wanted to do.

Question: Does he have his own country in this one?

Question: Did you go back to the comics, or is this completely unique?

Payne: I think it is subtly alluded to. The one thing I'll say about Doom in this is that he's certainly progressing towards the Doctor Doom that people know in the comics, much more so than the first film.

Question: We have to ask, what kind of role Galactus plays in this?

Payne: Who? (laughs) Well, you know, the film really focuses on the Silver Surfer, otherwise it would be Rise of the Silver Surfer and Galactus. But you can't have one without the other, and I'm not telling any tales out of school because (20th Century Fox executive) Tom Rothman himself said that Galactus would make an appearance. That's all I can say.

Question: We've heard about the Fantasticar too...

Payne: Yes, Tim Story had that on his blog.

Question: Is that gonna be something that they are already using, or are we going to see them using it for the first time? Is it gonna look like a bathtub?

Payne: I love the flying bathtub. This is not gonna be a flying bathtub. They don't have it at the outset of the story. I'll say that.

Question: Did you go back to the comics, or is this completely unique?

Question: Are there elements of Fantastic Four lore that we'll see for the first time?

Payne: I think everybody has heard about Frankie Raye being in there. That's a character that's just dropped in. There are references to other characters that I don't want to go into.

See, I don't want to spoil anything. I mean, I'm a geek who hates spoilers, I have to say. I'm paying a visit to the Battlestar Galactica set today, and I guess they're filming the season finale, so I'm conflicted, because I want to see it but I don't want to see it.

Question: Is there anything in the film that you really, really wanted to put in, but didn't quite make it?

Payne: Anything I really wanted to put in but didn't quite make it? I don't want to go into that because it's something that might appear in another film. There were a couple of things I wanted to do, but possibilities are still open, so the door is not closed.

Question: And did you work in threads in for a third movie?

Payne: Well I certainly think the door is open for a Silver Surfer spin-off, and I think the franchise lends itself to a third film, definitely.

Question: Did you go back to the comics, or is this completely unique?

Question: Would you be interested in returning for a third film?

Payne: I would indeed.

Question: This isn't gonna be a cliffhanger?

Payne: It's self-contained. Well, there are all kinds of questions left unanswered, which I think could be explored in a future film. But it is self contained. It's not Pirates of the Caribbean 2 or Empire Strikes Back. It's not that open-ended.

Question: Are you using the Silver Surfer as Jack Kirby wrote him or is he updated? What's your take?

Payne: I think it's more traditional, along the lines of the Silver Surfer that actually appeared in the comics, the Stan Lee/Jack Kirby hybrid. I just saw a documentary online, on YouTube, where Jack Kirby referred to the Silver Surfer as a fallen angel, and I think that's a good analogy. I think he's one of the most complicated characters in comic-book history, maybe the most complicated. Because he's done this amazing selfless act by saving his own planet and giving up the woman he loves to save her life, and yet he's become part of this horrible genocide on a cosmic scale and there's a moral ambiguity there. He's a noble creature who's got a Zen-like detachment from his actions and ultimately starts to become human again. Although he's not human.

Question: Does this film touch on his backstory?

Question: Did you go back to the comics, or is this completely unique?

Payne: It does touch on his backstory. I think it could be more fully explored in a Silver Surfer movie. I think Silver Surfer in this is, for a lot of the film, is a mysterious force with incredible power, and the Fantastic Four are trying to understand what he is, and what his presence on the planet means.

Question: You said your dream project would be to work on a Marvel comics property. When you were given this assignment, what was the juiciest part of it? Handling the Fantastic Four, the Silver Surfer? What excited you the most as a writer?

Payne: I liked it all, man, I gotta say. I mean I love writing for the four characters because I know them. They were like a family to me when I was growing up as a kid, you know. And the Silver Surfer was great. I mean he's a challenge. You've gotta maintain him as this serious presence but also noble and very intelligent, but also dispassionate. It's a challenging thing. I think he's gonna look really cool, from what I hear. He's gonna look very faithful to the comics.

Question: When you're writing the Silver Surfer, are you thinking at all, "How the hell are they going to make this character?" Or do you just not even worry about that?

Payne: I said, "You know what? That's not my problem. I'll write as best I can and see how they do it." I have confidence that it's gonna be awesome. I really do. I think the Silver Surfer is really going to draw in a lot of people for good reasons. I think it's gonna be great eye-candy. It's gonna be amazing. Fingers crossed.

Question: With so many stories to draw on from the source material, how do you fit so many ideas in?

Payne: You try to integrate the source material into some coherent form, some coherent stories and make all the elements fit together.

Question: Had you written the first one, do you think that the story would have evolved differently, or would you still have written this as you have?

Payne: I think it was a real challenge writing the first film because everyone was trying to find their footing. People were trying to find the tone, and find out how to establish the characters, and I think it would've been a real challenge for any writer writing that first film. I have a lot of sympathy for anybody in that situation, trying to get a franchise off the ground because there's a lot of things going against you. It's a big hill to climb.

Would I have written things differently here because of the first film? It would have been easier to make Doom the malevolent, evil character that everyone knows and loves had he not been that billionaire in the first film, certainly. But, you know, I think we're getting there.

Question: In terms of tone, the first film felt more like it was aimed at kids. Is the second film tonally comparable?

Payne: Well, I mean, it is a family film. It is for everybody, but I'm hoping that doesn't mean it's dumbed down at all, in any way. You know, I've written for years on The Simpsons and we never try to dumb it down for kids, ever; we hope kids learn things by watching this. So I think it's gonna be a great adventure story for the whole family, and it's dealing with major, serious end-of-the-world type issues, so I'm hoping kids will like it, but that adults and fans like it as well.

Question: Were you able to throw in any Simpsons stuff?

Payne: No, I'm not. I'm trying to think if there'sŠ there may be one reference to a Simpsons show from a long time ago. See if you can find it. All the geeks out there, see if you can find it. I don't think anybody knows that I did that actually.

Question: You mentioned that Reed and Sue are engaged in this film. Can you tell us about their relationship and more specifically, what changes Sue goes through from the first film as a result?

Payne: I think that they are trying to figure out exactly how to make a super-hero marriage work. How is this going to play out? Can they have a normal life and be super-heroes? Can they raise a family and be super-heroes? That's the big issue I think they face.

Question: You said can they raise a family. Is there some reference to Franklin in this one?

Payne: I think we're talking hypothetically in the future.

Question: When you start going into that territory, of course you're in The Incredibles territory, how do you avoid that?

Payne: Well, I liked The Incredibles, but the Fantastic Four did it first. So, I'd say The Incredibles can worry about themselves.

Question: Does the Alicia Master character get a larger role?

Payne: I love Kerry Washington, and I love the Alicia Masters character. Her role is pretty much tied to her relationship with Ben in this story. I'm hoping that if we ever do a Puppet Master story that she'll have a much more expanded role for -- obvious reasons.

Question: Have you left the nosebleeds out, or are we going to see more of the sort of thing? Are Sue's powers having an effect on her physically?

Payne: I think when she exerts herself on a great level, you may see another nosebleed. I think that she actually did an MTV report where she addressed having a blood pack in her nostrils, so I'm not giving away anything there. But I think when she exerts herself tremendously, something's going on in her brain, and it takes a toll on her physically.

I think they're more comfortable in their powers, and they're able to do things that they might not have been able to do in the first film.

Question: Did you write a spot for Stan Lee?

Payne: Stan Lee, his picture has appeared online, so I'll say, yes, he does have a cameo. We'll see how much of it is in the final film. But I think it's important that Stan Lee show up for the wedding of Reed Richards and Susan Storm for obvious, deep reasons.

Question: How much did you have to take into account the kind of hardcore fan base and to what extent they might expect quite specific details or stories?

Payne: Well, I know what the fan base wants, because I'm part of the fan base. I mean, I'm one of 'em. I try to stay as true to the comics as I possibly can. But you can't do a literal translation from the comics to the screen. Otherwise in the first Fantastic Four you'd be talking about beating the pinkos into space, you know? So there are changes you have to make.

Question: It was really cool when you talked about cameos or crossovers with Marvel properties. I just saw the DVD with the Wolverine insert scene. Have you put any of these in?

Payne: I'm not aware of any. That's not to say that there isn't any in there.

Question: I think there was talk about the Beast showing up.

Payne: Oh really? Did Kelsey Grammar make the comment? I don't believe he's in the film, to tell you the truth. I hate to disappoint you, I don't think he is. But like I said, I'm just the writer. God knows what they're doing on the set right now.

Question: Did you have any conversations with Stan Lee at all before?

Payne: No. No. I have met Stan Lee a couple of times, and I'm just in awe of the guy. I mean I grew up worshipping him. His name was one of these great icons in the comics -- and beyond.

So he was actually on a Simpsons episode back in the day. I met him there. He was really funny. He was always trying to turn into the Hulk. It was kind of sad, because he couldn't do it, and people kind of said, "Okay, Stan, you can do it." He'd say, "No, really, I can do it." And it didn't make it in, but I pitched that at the very end he actually says, "Oh great, flame on," and he flames on and he flies away. It didn't make it in.

Question: Do you know if they're pushing for the Fantasticar to be like the Batmobile in terms of how iconic it is?

Payne: I'm not exactly sure what you mean. You mean like are they pushing it to be like it is in the comics?

Question: I mean are they trying to make it a really big, marketableŠ

Payne: You mean like a toy? Because I'll buy that toy. I think they want to make an iconic image for the Fantastic Four. They travelled around in it in the comics, in issue what - someone help me out here... Yeah, so I mean they want to make something that's going to be around.

Question: I'm just thinking in terms, you think Batman, you think about the wheels, stuff like that.

Payne: Yeah, I feel the Fantasticar is linked to the Fantastic Four much more than the X-Men's vehicle is linked to them or the Quinjet to the Avengers. You know, the Fantasticar and the Batmobile are the two big comic-book vehicles.

Question: Were you very descriptive of how the Fantasticar would look?

Payne: I didn't give an exact physical description of "The tires would look like this, and it should be blowing out fire here," but the essence of what it should be. You know, it's cool. It's sleek. It's fast. So that was in there. I think they've done a great job. I think it looks really cool from the designs I've seen. I think you'll like it.

Question: All super-hero movies, all comic-book movies sort of depend on the outsider theme in order to really work, or to bring some emotional depth to the characters. And yet you can't keep an outsider theme going for too long before it gets tired. How did you balance that in the script? And what are some of the other dilemmas in addition to their outsider-ism?

Payne: Well, I think that when you become a super-hero team and you don't have a secret identity, you run into a problem of celebrity, a lack of privacy. You can't really go outside to a restaurant without being swarmed, and I think this is some of the things that they're dealing with. Especially Reed and Sue were talking about a long-term relationship, and ultimately raising a family - is it right to bring someone into this world? Especially when you have monsters coming in from the Negative Zone, you know? That's not in this film! But maybe in the future.

Question: But there was this wonderful - and maybe it wasn't intentional - but in the first one it seemed that there was this idea about whether the way people look defines them, and I thought it made a wonderful allegory to the comics. Is there a similar social message in this one?

Payne: The allegory of don't judge people by the way they look, yeah, that was in the first one. But Ben is more comfortable with the way he appears now, he's kind of past that issue. And I'm trying to think of any other message ... I don't think so. There's certainly a theme of self-sacrifice and an individual making a sacrifice for the greater good. That's throughout. It's kind of the story of the Silver Surfer.

Question: I notice you only walked into the Baxter Building in the first film. Are we going to be seeing anything new or different in this one?

Payne: The Baxter Building, because they're more successful and are making more money, has been refurbished. As has Reed's lab. So it's not as grungy. It's more high tech. It's slick.

Question: How has Reed become more successful?

Payne: Well, if you're the smartest man in the world, so you can make money that way, by inventing things. You can also do commercials.

Question: In the first film, Reed is trying to fix Ben to make him normal. Is that happening still?

Payne: You know, I kind of ignored that, because at the end it seemed like he was capable of trying to fix him, and yet he didn't choose to be fixed, so I didn't really want to play that up, so I don't alude to that. I believe that he is now mutated to the point where he cannot be turned back.

Question: Is this is one year after the last film?

Payne: Yeah, it's like a year, a year-and-a-half after. It's a long engagement.

Question: Have they had a chance to become celebrities?

Payne: Yeah, I think they were on their way at the end of the last one. There was the insert, her being pursued through the streets of New York by a crowd, and there's more of that in this. You know, even Ben's physical appearance has changed some. He's got more of a brow, and that's something, I think, that alludes to the comics as well.

Question: There's a tremendous number of Marvel films coming out as well. Which of them would you most like to be attached to?

Payne: Oh, I love them all. I love the Spider-Man franchise. I love the X-Men franchise, obviously. Fantastic Four. I love the Avengers. I love Captain America. I love Iron Man. Who do I not like, that's the question. Dazzler? I don't know.

Question: What's wrong with Dazzler?

Payne: Oh no, Dazzler's cool too. I'd do Dazzler.

No, there are a lot of titles, it's very exciting. It's really exciting that Marvel is doing, producing their own films, and that will be interesting to see how that end up. I wish them all the luck in the world, and I hope they hire me. But they've got a good group of writers who really know the source material and that are really talented, so I'm hoping some really good movies come out of there. I mean I want to see Iron Man. Don't you? That would be great.

Question: Is there a property from DC that you'd want to write?

Payne: Surprisingly, I grew up as a Marvel kid, I really didn't know DC that well. Occasionally, like Spider-Man vs Superman, I got that. And of course I know Batman and Green Lantern and most of the Justice League. But I haven't been following or reading their comics that much, except for big-event things, like Identity Crisis, I read that, I thought it was excellent. And the Dark Knight, of course, was great.

Question: How do you label the difference between Marvel and DC, when you say you're a Marvel guy? What does that mean to you?

Payne: There was something about the Marvel Universe that really appealed to me. It seemed more real to me than the DC Universe. Partly because it was New York, and Los Angeles, and the characters seemed more flawed in their secret identities than they did in the DC Universe. I mean Bruce Wayne had his problems, but he was also a millionaire, so... Peter Parker was somebody I could identify with at that age, somebody who was picked on, and nerdy, and it was a wish fulfillment thing for me. I mean that's what drew me to Marvel. But I like DC, hey, they're great.

Question: What have you been reading?

Payne: You know what I've been reading? Ex Machina. That's really good. I'm really hooked into that.

Question: Did you do any work om The Simpsons Movie?

Payne: Just the TV show. I know all the guys, actually, that work on it. And I haven't seen it, but I think it's going to be great. They're really talented, funny guys, and I think it'll be a lot of fun. I like what I've seen so far online.

Question: Do you think it's hooked to a partcular episode?

Payne: It's its own contained thing, it's its own original story.

Question: What else are you working on?

Payne: You know, I think Bryan Singer said "a movie is never finished, it's just abandoned." I love that quote, and feel like it's the same with the screenplay, it's never really finished. I think there's never been a movie where they said, "OK, here's the script, let's go shoot it." And they shot it exactly like it's on the page.

You're always futzing the stuff, and you get a call from the set saying, "This line, what do you think? Can you give me a couple of options here?" Or, "You know what, we don't have this location today, can we do this here instead of here?" So I've been doing a little bit of that, and working on The Simpsons. I've been busy the past three years and I've really been spending a little time with my family, and enjoying that. But I've got a couple of specs I'm working on also, so we'll see how that pans out.